BT Openreach Engineers that suck
March 6th, 2007 by Stephen
In the UK, no matter what ISP you use, you pretty much always end up dealing with BT engineers. This is really really bad, because BT Openreach engineers are so variable.
Today we had one of the bad ones. He calloed when I was out of the house, so he thought he would bamboozle my wife with his brilliance. After first refusing to do the actual line test he was sent to do, he told my wife that the reason we can only get a quarter of the ADSL line speed is because of our house wiring.
“But we had our wiring checked by a qualified BT engineer” my wife interjected, but he would have none of it. He told her that we were syncing with the exchange fine from the master test socket.
Well of course. As we had explained, we can always sync at 8Mbps or thereabouts. The problem is that when we use the BT speed test page, using the dedicated speed test account over the BT network to their test server, we get much lower speeds.
His answer to my wife: “People always blame BT openreach, but the problem is the ISPs”.
No Mr BT engineer (DJ), the problem is the BT network. Notice what we had already established:
- The wiring is fine
- I used the test socket to test the connection using the BT account. Our ISP network was not part of the equation, and nor was our wiring.
But, of course, the engineer refused to do this test. He merely tested the sync speed, and surprise surprise got the same results as us.
Why did we even have an engineer here when a previous engineer had already been out and tested everything successfully? Because we had the temerity to ask when BT would fix the Aberystwyth Exchange. This exchange has been underperforming for months, and every time BTs deadline to fix it comes up, they just extend the deadline. Thus our ISP wanted to know when the work was really going to be carried out. BTs answer was to send us an engineer that we did not need, did not want to come and tell us a load of rubbish.
Some more choice nonsense from this engineer. He said that we could not get faster speeds because we are using USB modems. “No we are not”, replied my wife. “We have a router - a BT router at that”.
Oh, thinks the engineer quickly. Okay, the problem is that you are using wireless. This slows everything right down. (although actually when I run tests I do not use wireless). He asked: “What speed wireless. Is this 100K or 54K”.
“It is IEEE 802.11g” my wife replied. (She hears me speak about it often enough that she knows the numbers).
“Yes, but is that 54K g or 100K g?” Replies the engineer, implying my wife is stupid for not knowing.
Now for anyone that does not know, IEEE 802.11g runs at 54Mbps (although allowing for protocol overhead, you probably only achieve 30Mbps, which is still much faster than the ADSL line). The 100Mbps standard (not 100K) is IEE 802.11n, and the slower standard that I think he must have alluded to is IEEE 802.11b.
802.11b is the 11Mbps standard, which with protocol overhead would likely achieve less than the ADSL’s 8Mbps (especially if signal reception is poor). But my wife had answered correctly. We were not using wireless that would slow down the network path (except perhaps for some initial latency which is more or less unnoticeable).
So having betrayed his enormous ignorance, he decides to do so once again.
“You probably do not have computers capable of running at 8Mbps. You need dual core for that”.
I am flabbergasted. How, for instance, do we explain the fact that we had 10Mbps ethernet connections which actually achieved that speed at least as far back as 1997 on consumer devices (before that, often network cards could not actually manage the full 10Mbps, even though the networks could).
How do we explain that we regularly achieve 100Mbps over the house ethernet? (perhaps he did not spot our ethernet!)
And worst of all, how dare he insult my computers. We have at least 10 computers in the house, and two of them have dual core technology.
This is the worst kind of buck passing ignorance that I have heard since… since…
Oh, since this debacle with BT.
Just to be fair - the previous BT engineer we had out was excellent. He seemed to know his stuff, and he actually carried out the tests he was sent to do. Not everyone at BT is as bad as DJ. But enough are that it is no wonder broadband takeup in the UK is now languishing.
We have had our own lengthy and frustrating experiences with BT broadband, but the two engineers that we have had contact with have been the most helpful and knowledgeable people we’ve come across.
I’m not a computer professional, but I’m studying for a Masters in Information Management (the fluffy end of IT?!) and I’ve come to the conclusion based on the evidence I’ve seen that BT do not have a Customer Relation Management system. Staff in different sections seem to have no way of passing information about customers between each other. Yesterday we had 3 calls and 1 email from 4 people all unaware that the others were dealing with our problem. It seems extraordinary that a company this size could consider working like this.
Olwen
Thanks for your comments Olwen,
I am sure that not all BT engineers are as bad as DJ, but to have one such engineer in the company is embarrassing enough!
I suspect that BT do have a CRM, but either they are not using it correctly, or it has some major deficiencies! Much of the problem is that support is outsourced rather than in-house. I suspect that the CRM (assuming it exists) does not integrate with the outsourced system.
All the best with your masters degree.
I decided to go with BT and phoned them up to book an appointment. I was allocated an appointment on saturday with their engineer from openreach between 8 - 6pm.
I waited in all day and no engineer came.
I phoned sunday and after being on hold for nearly 2 hours I was told I would have to wait for a call from openreach which could take 7 days this was over a week ago and once again - no call. I phoned again today and after 2 hours on hold I was told I just have to wait until open reach call me. I am now fed up and considering going on NTL (or virgin as it’s now called).
This is very frustraiting and I do not like getting fobbed off all the time. It is obvious that this new scheeme is not working and look how much it has cost BT to set this up - let alone how many customers they will loose as a result of their bad customer manner
trev
Sorry to hear about your woes Trev. I don’t know anything about Virgin’s service, but I would be tempted to go with that, as it does not involve BT at all!!
HI JUST A NOTE IM A telcoms Engineer and i find this hard to understand hes right by what he says a line test wont prove anything a line test would just prove you have connection to the exchange just another note ..openreach own the hole network up to your point of entry and it dont matter what service provider you are on it will all travel the same route !!!! (note have a look at the black and white before you take a new service provider it says UP TO 8MEG not you will get it .. it deopend on how far away you are from the exchange) one more thing why dont you call oprenreach ???? all jobs are alocated and logged say you was not happy with the service and trust me it will be looked into!
sorry cant put name
No, the line test would prove something: it would report figures of signal to noise ratio and line attenuation, which would show that the slow speeds are not to do with the wiring.
We dod not ask for the test. Indeed we pointed out that we had already has the line tested, that our line was extremely good (we are about 100 metres from the BT exchange) and, indeed, that we receive similarly good results from elsewhere in the house. But you cannot talk to BT. The ISP is the customer, and so openreach keep sending out engineers.
(Actually they have stopped now. They moved our circuit in the exchange eventually and fixed the problem).
Yes, of course the data travels the same route until it reaches the ISPs network. This is the problem. And this is why it is not acceptable that the ISPs are blamed by openreach engineers for poor performance. Sometimes it is (Pipex/Tiscali for instance are constantly terrible), but sometimes it is the BT network - particularly in underperforming exchanges (as the Aberystwyth exchange was underperfroming when I wrote this).
Yes, I know the bit about “up to 8MB”, but as we are - as I mentioned - 100 metres away from the exchange with an excellent connection, it is a bit disconcerting when you cannot manage more the 500Kb/s (with a good ISP) or about 30Kb/s with a bad one.
That’s what I would call sub optimal.
Why don’t I call openreach? I did. Many a time. They would not talk to me.
You see, the ISP is the customer, not me. I am not allowed to talk to openreach. We couldn’t even comment on the jobs - it all goes through the ISP.
BT communications? It is an oxymoron.
Thanks for taking the time to defend openreach - but I remain thoroghly unconvinced.
“…your call IS important to us…” yeah right!
I don’t profess to understand the above technical problems, all I want is a simple itsy bitsy teeny weeny BT landline so I can have Sky installed. Anyone would think it was rocket science the amount of time it has taken to actually get through to place the order (approx 4 hours waiting over 5 phone calls eventually to be sent into telephone orbit!). And then what? I eventually get through to the right department and can the person who has processed my order, taken my bank details for direct debit instruction, kept me on the phone for 45 minutes, make a simple appointment for the Openreach engineer to come out and do their job? Hell no! There is a ’system error’.
I may or I may not get a call in the next five days (make that five working days so it’s going to be seven days) giving me an appointment. Supposing I do get a call with an appointment then I have another 14 days wait as that seems to be the earliest they quoted to get someone to do the work!
I have now lost the will to live! :/
Pressure to come bac to BT is almost irresistable.
What Happens between the nice rep. and the oopenreach engineers ?
The promise does just not happen.
Give me my old provider any day , you could actually talk to them.
Can you revert back—- No. BT discontinue their service quickly enough.
Noone says about the interim period.
Frustrated
SW - I feel your pain. Now 37 days since we placed an order to have a line installed, still nothing from BT.
We did manage to get a hold of a really good Openreach engineer who has been excellent in trying to track down our order and what’s happened to it. They have nothing so they can’t really do anything, BT say it’s Openreach problems. Someone is telling fibs. However, the nice openreach man keeps us up to date on all the other houses in the area who are getting their lines put in, but he’s still mystified as to why BT are not giving them our order.
Summary BT = BAD, Openreach = Good! Least that’s my experience.
The end is in sight (no I’m not going to top myself but the thought has passed through my mind while drifting into a coma waiting for someone to answer the BT phone - hey, maybe they just have one phone that’s why we all have to wait for so long).
Now I don’t want to jinx things so I’ll type this very very quietly… I’ll let you know on Monday whether I have a landline up and running. Yep, that’s right, BT are supposed to coming out between 8am-1pm so watch this space.
BT actually phoned you??!?!? Wow!
Course, there was the other night when I got in from work and decided that I was going to try calling them again. This time it was from a mobile phone so it was costing me an arm and a leg. 2 hours on hold only to hear the faint click on the other end followed by “we’re sorry, this help desk is now closed”.
You know, I was begining to think that that department wasn’t staffed at all and (like you) there was just one phone there, next to the coffee machine. Whenever someone wanted a coffee they would wander over, start the machine up and answer the phone while they waited for it to pour.
I still remember quite vividly the feeling of utter dispair of sitting in an empty flat on hold for just over 5 hours. When the call was finally answered I got such a shock I could barely talk, thought the woman on the other end was going to hang up on me for being a heavy breather when it was only me suffering a mild heart attack in shock at being answered!
Some choice words were said that night I can tell you!
You should have a “I’m finally connected!” party if everything goes well!
Good luck
I was searching for Openreach BT problems.
BT Openreach have just billed me £190 for two visits and they did not even find the problem. They are not supposed to charge unless they find a fault in the house.
Beware, be careful when dealing with Openreach.
Will I pay for bad service and threatening behaviour?
No
ooops sorry folks, didn’t let you know what happened on the 4th. HALLEBLOODYLUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I now have a BT line - nice Openreach man, very helpful, took a little while and a £125 bill (which Sky refund so that’s ok!) Just got to sort out Sky now - heyho, life is never simple is it? Good luck to all, I’ll send out good vibes along the phone lines to you all!
if theres nothing worse than computer freaks who think they know how the telecom network is maintained bcos they can hook up a wireless network. how can a whole exchange be broken and underperforming you retard? Its the old copper wiring (and in some cases ali) which is making all of hyour net connections suffer. Ali cables corrode and go faulty over time and only recently have they realised this as they tried to save money when they were initially used in the network. As for people being charged, openreaches policy is if we arrive on site and the phone is working fine we have to charge. If there is no fault from the master socket how do u expect us to fault find. yes the fault could be hr or intermitent but thts for u too sort out with ur SP. And internal wiring does cause faults on the majority of faults i am on. For instance ppl piggybacking extension backwards etc, voice will sometimes work ok on these circuits but not data. And at the end of the day its all about the money the reason we get made to charge more these days is because we are not BT any more and therefor dont hafve BT to pay for our wages/vans/tools etc. and you know why?because offcom said we monopolysd the market making us rent our lineplant to other smaller SP’s. So if you miss tht Bt eng who used to come out for free and do everything for free, hes long gone. You can blame the likes of talk talk car phone wafe house etc. All The new recruites are being forced to charge. So if ur lucky the older guys will b more inclined to let u off for charges but then again would they want to get sacked for you?
Jim Boyes
My problems with BT and Openreach were in August.
Today, I received an email for the, Y Safle, website and read the comments about BT and Openreach.
It is obvious that BT customers and Openreach Engineers are having problems. I would suggest the best way forward is not to make the matter worse as this will not solve any problems.
On this website a read comments from a BT engineer, who I assume is an Openreach Engineer. His comments will do nothing to improve customer relations, indeed if new recruits are being forced to charge customers then Openreach should change their policy on this matter.
My problem with BT was mainly created by bad customer relations with Openreach. Most of BT customers do not understand the technical talk, so it is important to establish good communications with a BT customer. An Openreach engineer should have the ability to explain that some faults are not found, particulary intermittent faults, which can be difficult to locate.
However, In my case I was charged twice for the same fault. (£240 approx.)
I felt that this was particulary unfair, as the visit the previous day, did not find a fault. The first Openreach engineer had recently started the job and was inexperienced and should not have been sent on such a difficult problem. As soon as he went through the door I lost my broadband connection and telephoned BT. So the second visit the next day was a repeat call. Openreach charge per call and always insist that the call is completed on the visit to the home.
Surely, if no fault was found then Openreach should not charge for the call in the first place.
The second visit did not resolve the problem and I am still in dispute with BT about this matter. If I was told that the fault could not be found by an engineer, this would have saved me and BT a lot of trouble.
In the future, I will have to think twice before calling out Openreach, as I could be charged per call again.
I assume Openreach realise that this will discourage BT customers contacting them for faults. I must ask, is this good customer relations, or just a way of avioding faults that Openreach cannot solve? I am sorry to say moving ISP will not solve the problem as Openreach are still responsible for the BT telephone lines.
There is something much worse - it is BT Openreach engineers who think by virtue of the fact that they have been given a position with the company, that this suddenly gives them more knowledge about data communication networks than the network professionals.
This comment of yours is not going to help the public profile of your company. I was careful to say in the original article that some engineers are excellent and others are not. You have just demonstrated this point. Having failed ti understand the issues at hand, you decide to annoy your customers by suggesting you must therefore know more about telecommunications than they do. Problem is - there is always someone who knows more than you do.
To BT train you to call their customers retards?
Now go back and re-read the article. Notice the link beside the point where I wrote that the exchange had been underperforming for months. This will indicate to you that some of the virtual paths are not operating within BTs guidelines. The reason for this is because the DSLAMs in the exchange are pretty much full. the purpose of the DSLAM is to multiplex traffic onto an internet backbone. In most cases these DSLAMs are not full, and so contension ratios are lower than the advertised limites, and network contention is reduced. If the DSLAMs are full the higher contension causes the virtual paths to underperform, and data rates fall below the specification for the circuit. Congestion could also occur on the backbone.
Now think about what is being said. My article does not say “every user of the Aberystwyth exchange has sub standard service” because there is more than one DSLAM there. What I said was that the exchange had been underperforming for months - which it has. In fact, over a year now - although BT did ease the problem with installation of a new DSLAM a while back.
You see, the article is about underperformance on my circuit. The fact that the underperformance lies with BT is demonstrated in the article, and the fact that network paths are underperfoming their specified operating criteria is clearly likely to be the culprit (as demonstrated by the improvement to the service following the last exchange upgrade. We have been achieving 7Mbps throughputs for months now).
So before you go on calling your customers retards, could I please suggest that (a) you learn to read the articles, and (b) try to comprehend them.
And again this is the problem with the bad engineers such as the one in the article and yourself. You are too ready to diagnose the problem before you have evaluated the available evidence.
Our wiring is copper, not aluminium. It is also modern - 9 years old. When it was laid I spoke with the engineers doing the work and explained to them that they needed to ensure that copper was used as I would be running data communications networks. The engineer seemed affronted that anyone would even suggest laying aluminium now, but he confirmed that the cables would be copper and took the data comms needs into account.
And no, its not the length of the run either. The exchange is approximately 100 metres from the house, with a new cable run the wole distance.
But of course, if you had even bothered read the article, you would see that it is not the cabling. The line tests to the exchange all came back good (as I wrote above), and sync speeds were always above 7Mbps.
But like I say…there is nothing worse than a BT Openreach engineer who thinks that by virtue of his employment, he knows more about data communications than the network professionals.
go Stephen, go Stephen, go Stephen gogogogogogo
hi folks,
my house has 5 pcs on a network.
we are using Tiscali and every night our internet literally cuts on and off and is little more than dial up speed - this is when ONE pc is on.
Downloads: 5-10kb/s (thats if they don’t randomly stop 10% in for no reason!
what actually is going on around here, is it tiscali being shite or bt exchange being too small for the volume of traffic??
Its most likely because your bt exchange is too small for the traffic. Exchange workers have to manually procress your web requests for instance when you type in an url you want to view they have to put it on the barpair in the frame. So the more ppl that want to browse the web the equal amount of men have to be in the exchange. this problem will get better as theyr employing more switch staff from poland and india to help with the conjestion. This is most likely why stephens internet isnt working as well.
How about changing the subject.
My mind was taken off BT for a short time when I tried to use an Asda Car Wash.
It broke a wing mirror clean off.
Now you would think Asda would pay up, well err no, they are dragging their feet. Or should I say that they are a real shower?
sorry about the pun.
Still its a change from complaining about Openreach and Bt.
Oh, bye the way I am about to leave BT and try TalkTalk Free Broadband for £16.39 a month. Another disaster waiting to happen - I wonder?
If you don’t hear from me, (it could be a connection problem with my new ISP?).
Noooo!! Talk talk are terrible! I’d bet money (not much, I’m not that flush) that there’ll be a problem getting the BBand up and running or that it’ll be consistently slow and/or drop out. When you call them, who will they blame? BT. They’ll then tell you to phone BT, who will quite rightly tell you that they can’t help you as you’re not a BT customer and refer you back to talk talk, who will tell you that BT are being obstructive and it’ll go on and on and on. I had mountains of trouble with them. When I eventually cancelled, with their prior consent, they charged me for the remainder of the 18 month contract. Sorting that out was almost as difficult as getting them to take responsibility for their BBand fault.
Have since returned to BT for phone and BBand and everything is working perfectly (well, nobody had really said anything nice about them yet)
That’s interesting Mohammed. I will eagerly watch to see if there is an improvement
I deal with customers like yourselves daily os should i say end users!!
I’m afraid bt need to wake up and smell the coffee because at some point in the future millions will have to be spent on old inadequate failing line plant which is quite frankly keeping me in a job.
I hear from seniour engineers daily that the passion for the job has gone as everything is driven towards making profit instead of the end users being in service.
The majority of 1st and 2nd line managers are YES monkeys,selected for their ability to jump if told to and to be placed under immense pressure to improve job productivity and other rediculous statistical work criteria.
Someting will eventually have to give and you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to know that it’s going to get alot worse before there is any visibe improvement in telecommunications customer service.
I will continue to work for the end user and deliver a service that i would expect myself and can only apologise for the people who think they know it all.
Regards, Ronnie
Well said Ronnie, could’nt have put it better myself. I think I may well be the ‘good’ engineer you refer to Stephen as there are only 3 of us in the Aber area who deal with broadband, DJ (and I know exactly who you mean) myself and another who has a very similar attitude towards customers as DJ. Glad to hear you got it all sorted out in the end, sorry it could’nt have been done sooner.
The whole industry today has changed drastically in my 30 odd years working for the company. It used to be a telephone SERVICE. In my early years I would do the odd bit of shopping for housebound customers who were ill, perhaps the small odd job around the house for an elderly customer. talk to people ho otherwise may not speak to someone else for days. Then Maggie came along, determined to make BT fail. Promoting competition and changing the law (several times) to help BT’s competitors do better. After the first tranche of competition came liberalisation (where you could fit your own extensions and choose your own phones), then more recently LLU (local loop unbundling so other companies could use BT’s line plant from the exchange to your home/office). This has taken the industry further and further away from the customer, you, but now you are no longer a customer, just an end user. Ofcom/Oftel or what ever they will be called next, regulate the industry. They are the people who dictate to BT/Openreach how the industry will be run. BT is not the old ‘one point’ contact, it is now several lines of business, each self sufficient and hands tied by regulation. This means that the different departments of BT can only talk to each other via certain channels and the things they can talk about to each other are limited. Openreach is a stand alone company under the BT umbrella and has to treat all it’s customers as equal. BT, Sky, Talk Talk, Orange, Joe Bloggs telecom etc etc are all treated the same by the terms of our licence, they are our customers not the end user. Openreach does not ake any money from you making phone calls etc, it receives it’s revenue purely from renting and maintaining it’s fibre, copper,and aluminium network for Service providers to get their products to where you need them. As a result when you have problems Openreach come out to repair the network they maintain. If you report a telephone fault, they will prove the line ok from the exchange to the main socket. If the fault is elsewhere then someone will end up paying for the visit and time taken. Openreach bill the service provider who then decide whether to charge the end user (the service provider’s charge to the end user need not bear any resemblance to the charge they pay to Openreach). If the fault that you report is not apparent then Openreach will charge, If the fault that you report is caused by the internal wiring or equipment, Openreach will charge, If the fault that you report is in the service provider’s exchange equipment Openreach will charge. The circumstance of charging is laid down by the regulator and must be shown to be consistent and equal among all service providers and the regulator can and will bring penalties against Openreach when it is proved that the engineers have not acted as they should have.
Openreach engineers know just how bad it has become, BUT, it is not their fault If your Broadband is faulty, report it to your ISP, they will eventually pay for an Openreach engineer to check the line, if you are lucky they will pay Openreach extra to test beyond the first socket. I hope that you are beginning to get the picture, the Openreach engineer only does what he is told to do on the laptop, to vary from that can end up with a discipline case because in doing so he is causing Openreach to be in breach of the terms of it’s regulators.
Been on 35yrs.Arr The good old days when we had the time to be KIND to real human beings and just help in any way we could.Now as OPENREACH we are treated like robots.Saw an old lady fall half in the road in busy traffic, 10 cars in front of me just steered round her.I got so angry i blocked the road with my robot van.As i ran to help cars all tooting. my manager aged 19yrs rang why only 2 faults cleared 11am.I told him at the moment there,s not many humans left.
Not the greatest service re. your broadband problem stephen and you sound like you know more about broadband speeds and internet connection than most including myself. The one thing i would like to say is that openreach act on whatever the s..p say so if they report a problem to openreach and allocate an appointment they will send an engineer they have to request a broadband eng visit which they must have done it, seams to me that the line test the first engineer did proved the line was good quality and should support the speeds that you were expecting so there should never have been a request for second visit. The lines and exchange equiptment including tie pairs in the exchange to the dslam are owned and maintained by openreach however the dslam themselves are still owned and maintained by the different service providers and these cannot be changed unless given new equiptment by your service provider which after the first engineer tested your line and returned his tests and findings then the next step would/should in my opinion have been an equiptment change and your problem may have been sorted a bit quicker then you would never have had to meet the next engineer. i feel that the problem was more one of comunication which i can promise can be a cause of frustration whichever side of the fence you are from. service provider end user or openreach engineer
Hi Stephan glad to hear the problem seems to be sorted, just out of interest I had a chat with a openreach precision test engineer once who told me (in depth over diagrams which I cannot remember much from as it went in 1 ear and out the other) that you can suffer slower broadband speeds and other problems from being to close to an exchange.
Now I know that might sound odd but the guy knows more about exchange equiptment and the BT network than Amy Winehouse knows how to party so it might be worth a look into.
Regards
Hey all,
I work for a Telecomms co whom use Openreach on a regular basis * We buy lines etc off them and use them to maintain faults etc*
And I dare say i agree that some of the BTO engineers are good however a magority are nothing but ignorant because they get paid even if a job is incomplete. And in my area of field it is REDICULOUS that the BTO engineers slack so much and also the fact that the SMC hire nothing but kids to run the ops is even more stupid.
However, although i can rant and rave all the time about it, the truth is it ius a matter of luck to whether you get a good engineer or otherwise.
sorry if you think im being negative, but im speaking from experience.
Hi all,
I have to say I am sorry to customers who have a bad experience. It boils down a lot to the fact some of the older guys simply don’t care or don’t understand the techonolgy running over the copper network because their hayday was when PSTN was the only service. I try my hardest to help customers in a way I would be happy with. Most engineers will simply check for sync when it comes down to ADSL. I know that that is nearly not enough. I was an I.T tech and am studying cisco at present. We specialise in copper cable and fault finding on it. We are not trained in IP addressing etc which is why i’m taking the course. You may well have sync at your house but, if you don’t get a default gateway or an IP address you will not get past the RAS at the exchange which equals no internet pages for you. Anyway my point is some engineers are know it all’s and had no respect for me cause I was a newbie and got looked down on. I feel some customers experience that and they shouldn’t have to. Also CISCO engineers should be treated with respect becuase it’s a dam hard course to study and thoughs guys have a hell of a lot of knowledge. ADSL is more than a PAIR of wires its a complex data network and is made up of many layers and systems which could affect your ADSL service…..
I hope you all start to recieve a better service and I’m sure you will if you get a younger engineer. (This is in no way neggative to the older guys who do care about your job and the customers it’s mearly to the few unhappy depressed enigneers who need to be greatful they have a job!)
Thanks for your comment, and I am pretty sure that what you say is true.
Its not just about individual engineers, my feeling is that this is really a corporate problem about process and ownership…. I’ll explain.
I’m sure many people using BT will be aware that the main SMTP servers are down at the moment, and I first noticed this yesterday morning (Friday 21st) at about 8.55am. I had been using email for work to communicate with Moscow and Dubai happily since 7.00am and suddenly my outlook wasn’t sending although it was receiving emails.
Knowing that ‘these things happen’ I rebooted the router and my laptop, problem still apparent, so reported it to BT, saying it looks like their SMTP server. They (call centre in India) accepted this and said they are working on it. So I got on with other stuff and kept trying throughout the day and evening.
Tried again this morning. Problem still apparent, so I asked to speak with escalation manager. Fatima said “this is a big problem affecting many subscribers since 5th March”.
Trying to be polite and yet assertive, I explained that this only happened yesterday, prior to which everything was fine. Also, that she was implying its a ‘hole in the road’ or something like that, but in fact thats not the case. If its hardware - get the standby kit unpackaged out of the storeroom (or the hot stand-by online?) if its software then reload it (yes, of course I’m being too simplistic, I know). But 24hours SMTP server down (no outgoing emails) is simply unacceptable.
In short, I’m not at all sure that there is any effective escalation procedure in place for central server problems in BT Broadband, and I am pretty sure I was fobbed off by another call centre person who was pretending to have some authority.
BT is probably the most expensive Broadband service, and I’ve been wondering whether its going to be better elsewhere? I will use the downtime to look at other options. ‘Which’ gives ‘Zen’ as a best buy, and also ‘Waitrose’. I had all but ruled out ‘Talk Talk’ because which said that their system is based on reselling the BT network. Last night however I found out that CPW (owners of Talk Talk) continue to invest a lot in their own infrastructure including optical fibre.
So, in summary despite having some good guys around in BT, such as the smart guy who wrote the note above, I have a feel that BTs ailments may well be terminal and I’m looking to go elsewhere. Feel free to suggest alternatives folks.
Stop whinging and change your service providers. there are many out there. Makes you live longer. hi to terry and all the boys, cough..cough..cough..cough..
Hey Guys, certainly learned a lot from this thread. Just wondered if anyone could offer some advice please?!
Had a fault on the line, called BT, did line test etc Unable to discern fault, so the only option was to get an engineer out. I was warned that if the fault was due to my equipment, I could be charged. Fair enough.
The guy came out… ok, not much notice when he did actually turn up - I was advised he’d call to agree a convenient time, not just press the buzzer one day, but hey, only took about a week.
On inspection of the main socket he found that there was an extension socket plugged in, leading to the bedroom. Now this extension was wired under the floor etc.. The extension was causing the noise on the line.
Yeah you guessed it… that’s MY equipment. However, I know nothing about telecoms engineering, I work in healthcare. As far as I knew, BT installed 2 sockets in the house, end of story. So because I didn’t know (and couldn’t have had any way of knowing) that it was “my” fault and Openreach are not responsible for said extension - I’ve been charged a call out £99 + VAT and a repair cost £85 + VAT.
Hmmm.
It took him approximately 2 minutes to remove the socket cover, pull the extension wires out and close it again and check the phone line was now clean. That’s £85+VAT ??? When I asked BT they told me that was a flat charge. How is that fair? I don’t charge my patients like that! If treatment lasts 30 mins, I bill them for 30 mins etc.
Please though - can anyone suggest a solution. I spoke to BT (in India) who told me they could reduce the charge and charge me a setup fee instead???!!! HUH???
I just don’t see how you can levy those kinds of charges on customers who are genuinely not abusing the system, have no idea as to the source of their fault - and charge a flat rate which in this instance makes a plumber look cheap by comparison.
Bottom line is I don’t feel I should pay the charges out of principle and to be honest, I can’t afford to, so… not sure what happens next… ??!!
Seems like people still don’t understand the mess that Thatcher left behind.
BT is a customer of Openreach just as much as Talk Talk, Orange, Sky etc.
If you, and end user, are having problems, you report it to your service provider, be it Broadband of telephone.
They will avoid spending money so will ask you have you tried this, that, etc.
If they can see a fault on the line, they will arrange an Openreach to go out and repair the network that Openreach own. Your network provider should get you to check that the fault is not on your equipment/wiring etc before asking Openreach to come out.
If the line tests ok and an engineer is called out and cannot find a fault the service provider pays Openreach.
If the line test shows a fault and the fault is beyond our network the service provider pays Openreach
If the fault is on Openreach’s network there is no charge as Openreach is maintaining it’s own network.
The service provider when it calls out Openreach decides on the level of service that Openreach will provide (how much work they will carry out if it is not Openreach’s network at fault)
Openreach must treat and be seen to treat all it’s customers (Service providers) equally, to not do so would jeopardise their licence to operate
The amount that Openreach is paid when it is not their network at fault, bears little resemblance to charges that your service provider may choose to pass on to you.
There are many things that can cause you problems, a lot of the time it could be rectified by RTFM, when you don’t and Openreach put it right for you or disconnect your faulty equipment from their network, a charge will be raised for the service provider to pay Openreach.
As for the service providers shifting the blame on to Openreach, they would wouldn’t they. Anything to spread the blame and keep their own name.
When I was with another service provider my service was rubbish, but cheap rubbish, I moved to BT and looked out for the exchange job to change service providers, there wasn’t one as my first service provider bought bandwith from BT. All that was required for me to change service providers was a keyboard exercise (probably automated). My connection since moving to BT has been excellent. My kit at home is still the same, the network back to the exchange is still the same, the jumpering in the exchange is still the same, the equipment in the exchange is still the same. The only difference is the service provider and their equipment, their profit margins and contention ratios (a bit like having a bus and how many passengers they choose to let on, a budget outfit and loads of people will be crammed in, pay a bit more and you can ride in comfort)
Broadband is a cut throat business, some service providers surviving by ordering more equipment space in BT’s exchanges than they need just because they know it is sometimes impossible for BT to physically provide it within the timescales that Ofcom (or what ever the choose to call themselves) lay down, this means that BT has to pay them compensation.
The end user is nearly always going to be the one to suffer, we see that almost every day, end users on profiles that will never work, just because they want their “upto 8 meg” or service providers want “not to spend money” or end users trying to short circuit the system by reporting the phone line faulty instead of the broadband, just to get an engineer out sooner. If they do that they probably won’t even get a broadband trained engineer anyway, just a charge.
We hate the system but that is the way Ofcom deem it should be run, and like anything in this world it has it’s price, so if you or your service provider don’t do your bits properly you will end up sadly paying
No matter how modern or old your house is there will always be aluminium cables in the network between your house and the exchange, unless you live next door to it and even then its not a guarantee.
When a new building site is built there will be new copper cables from every individual home, then into the street where eventually they will join existing cables that have been in the ground for years and years, which will then continue to the exchange.
These existing cables (in most cases) are very very old, BT will not provide brand new cables to the exchange if there’s an existing route already there. In some occasions I’ve known them to share another customers line, halfing the bandwidth to prevent providing new cables.
“No matter how modern or old your house is there will always be aluminium cables in the network between your house and the exchange, unless you live next door to it and even then its not a guarantee.”
Luckily that is not so, most of the network is copper, aluminium was used for a while during the 70’swhen the price of copper went through the roof.
Older parts of the network could even be using a thicker copper conductor so would give less loss to the broadband over a given distance.
Ray,
Please could you explain to me how you can share a customers line? Unless it’s a DAC’s or runs through a gurfella cab or they do something stupid like share the A leg…. Would they? Anything else would cause battery or earth contact. This is not being nasty just wondering how else you could?
Thanks.
The old party line disappeared with system X & Y exchanges,
WB900 was introduced as a “pair gain” device 20 - 30 years ago, ok if you were the audio rubbish if you were the carrier any real distance from the exchange.
DACs and Gaffellers were digital systems brought in to supercede WB900s. They work by converting the voice into data to send conversations down the line. Not so good for dial up internet as speeds were limited to 28 or 32 kb/sec. Incompatible with Broadband.
Then came the Broadband revolution, BT worked hard to improve speeds and continues to do so. your pair of wires from the exchange to your home will travel along many lengths of separate cables jointed together. The method of jointing was fine with POTS (plain old telephone system) but some of the connectors used can cause drops in attenuation of the line (slightly slower speeds) with Broadband. BT is in the middle of a massive push to get rid of these “blue beanie” connectors
The frequency used to transmit the Broadband signal is prone to electrical interference, which can come from many sources. we have had street lights causing problems, (my broadband works fine during the day but every evening it slows or drops out) and one case where someone’s satellite receiver (not a sky box) had a fault that back fed the interference out on to the electricity supply knocking out all broadband on the whole estate. It took weeks to track down to the offending address and then just as long to get access and prove the fault with the customer at first refusing to stop using the receiver.
In the home there are many sources of interference, fridges, freezers mobile phones microwaves, fluorescent lights, the list goes on and on and these are things not connected to your line. Miswired extentions and faulty phones skyboxes etc all add to the nightmare of fast Broadband.
Hope that makes things a bit clearer
Hi all,
I’m an Openreach Apprentice, though i’m being trained with a FD degree in telecommunications, which includes data comm’s, such as LAN’s and WAN’s. Those of us that do this style of apprenticeship, also study for an NVQ level three in Telecomm’s. We, when out working in the network, will be able to help so much more with faults and issues reguarding complex BB and network issues, though the engineers aren’t supposed to in most cases, i believe that the customer service and satisfaction this would provide will be considerably improved. This is why i believe that arrangement should be made for us to be able to provide such a service, and not for a stupidly high cost. Alas, we are not really able to do this due to the service providers who claim they have engineers to do such things, though by the sounds of it, they are few and far between.
I’m sorry to hear about the CS problems alot of you have had, but we’re not all bad, most of us will do everything in our power to get you up, running to a level you are happy with.
The Openreach network is vastly improving due to the introduction the the 21st century network (21CN). In the area i work in, this is beginning to take shape quite quickly and the quality of the network has improved greatly as of late, hence the falling number of faults occuring.
Any way, sorry to go on…….
I’m in Monmouthshire. We had immense problems. BT blamed it on us, we blamed it on them. I spent hours on the phone to BT complaining about an internet service that went on and off and slow speeds when it did work.
In the end I went with an independent engineer who just calls himself “the BT man” (www.thebtman.com) and he attended and tested the line, found the fault, fixed it that same day and now we have roughly double the speed and a router light that isnt constantly bloody flashing!
David, Penault.
One thing to note is that the adsl speedtest websites that people use to determine the ‘true’ linespeed are inaccurate. Factors such as the distance between the customers ISP and the location of the ISP that hosts the testing website. Also contention ratios are set by the communications providers not by BT. BT has to allow CPs to install their own equipment into the exchanges. Although there are 400+ comms providers only a handful install their own equipment, the majority ‘rent’ adsl from BT & brand it as their own. A bit like the way gas & electricity suppliers work, the products come from the energy supplier which is in turn resold to the customer via a third party.
-Openreach Frames Engineer-
David, just out of interest, who did “the bt man” blame it on.
Chris: The fault was in the cable that ran up the outside of the house. Thebtman replaced this and our master socket.
David, that’s interesting. “the BT man” should not have touched that wiring (providing it was network wiring before the master socket) and certainly not the master socket as it is the property of Openreach. And no doubt he charged you a tidy sum for the work that Openreach would have done for free.
Chris:
BT stated the fault was inside our property and quoted us £133 callout and £99 per hour if the fault was inside.
Had the BT line test revealed the fault was outside our property we would certainly have had BT do the job but unfortunately the BT line test is unreliable and didnt show up the fault and the price quoted by Thebtman over the phone was fixed and much less than the cost to have Openreach do the job had the fault been inside [as the bt fault test suggested].
Also the wiring is NOT the property of Openreach as this property was a new build and sockets were preinstalled along with a junction box on the soffet, after which point the BT cabling starts.
A junction box on the soffet doesn’t sound like a demarcation point to me but hey ho.
Ever had a problem with a car, phoned up the garage and asked them what the cause of the problem was over the phone?
“Could be this, could be that won’t know for sure until we look at it.”
Get it in the garage & put it on the computer but the computer won’t say exactly what the problem is, could be this, could be that, have to try this, and then something else until it works.
This is known as the real world, do you think that any line test system can pinpoint a fault over perhaps 5 or 7 Kilometres and decide that it is not in your house, but 2 or 3 metres before it actually enters your property.
Some things are not quite straight forwards, but if you do the checks properly to prove the fault in or outside of your property you stand a good chance of not getting charged.
Remember BT & Openreach work to a licence given to them, it means that all customers and End Users should be treated the same, and get charged in certain circumstances, don’t blame us, blame “Ofwhoever” or yourself (if you did something stupid) or did not do something you were asked to.
BT/Openreach are not a charity, and almost certainly you will not be a special case according to “Ofwhoever’s” rules
No-one ever said life would be easy!
Chris:
The wiring and junction box was installed by the builder and the “drop wire” as far the junction box was supplied / installed by BT.
The fact is that no wiring/sockets that were the property of BT were touched.
So you are saying BT/Openreach didn’t provide a network termination point?
Chris:
Exactly. The NTE5a was preinstalled by local builder (or someone he employed) and is identical to a BT NTE aside from lack of logos (made by same company who make BTs NTEs too) so there was no requirement for BT to provide anything.
You see that’s where the problem lies, there is every requirement for BT to provide an NTE as THAT is the demarcation point, not some junction box on your soffet or an NTE that your builder preinstalled. Builders are not licensed to install NTE’s
Chris: You dont need to be licenced to install an NTE and also I didnt say it was the builder who installed the NTE.
Also, demarcation is not always at the NTE. New builds with pre-installed wiring are different.
OK licenced is probably not the right word but you do have to be employed by or contracted to Openreach to install an NTE. NTE stands for network terminating equipment ie. the point at which Openreach’s network terminates. An NTE is property of Openreach and therefore can only be installed by Openreach or a third party contracted to Openreach.
“I didnt say it was the builder who installed the NTE.”
Maybe I misunderstood your statement in your previous post.
Quote “The NTE5a was preinstalled by local builder (or someone he employed)”
The demarcation point IS always at the NTE. If it wasn’t how can Openreach define where their network ends and an end users start?
New builds with pre-installed wiring are no different to established houses. There still has to be an NTE installed by Openreach. The only difference that might occur is that Openreach could use one of their new external NTE’s which are installed on the outside of a property no more than 1.5M above ground level ie. not on your soffet.
If you still do not agree with what I am saying, have a look at the Openreach website and check out page 24 of the builders guide where it clearly states The main socket or external NTE must be supplied by Openreach.
Hope this clears up any confusion.
Chris:
No confusion on our part sorry; Supplied….not necessarily fitted by.
In our experience (we have bought/sold a few houses) of dealing with newsites and local engineers, the nte may be checked to be wired correctly but never have we had any problems with NTEs that are not badged as Openreach and regardless of what the article says our nte is our property as we paid for it…end of.
I’m not doubting you bought and therefore own the NTE’s but the fact still remains that Openreach are supposed to supply the NTE. Now if a local engineer decides he’s too lazy to remove your NTE and fit an Openreach one (as he should) then that’s a different story.
Disregarding the rules and regulations that Openreach lay down could result in a hefty bill further down the line, not necessarily to you but maybe to the unlucky punter who buys one of your houses.
NB in the regulations (not an article) it states NTE’s MUST be supplied by Openreach……end of.
Those regulations were brought in AFTER our NTE was fitted…..end of!!
Now you are just making it up. Those regulations came into being at the same time the NTE5a was first used. So by my reckoning that must be +20 years.
Chris:
Nonsense. You quoted a document that cannot be older than 2006, our socket was installed in 2004.
Also, our NTE is identical to an Openreach one as they are made by the same company!!
That’s right I quoted an Openreach document and as Openreach was created in 2006 then as you correctly pointed out that document could not be older than 2006. However before Openreach opened for business there was this company called BT that supplied NTE’s with BT branding on them and guess what? the same regulations applied to BT NTE’s as the regulations that apply today for Openreach ones. Nonsense? No. Fact? Yes!
To be honest I wouldn’t have a clue who made your NTE or who makes Openreach’s. If you say yours is identical to Openreach’s that’s great but that is not the issue. The issue is if an Openreach engineer came across an illicit attachment, for example an NTE that has not been supplied by Openreach then he/she would be obliged by OfCom regulations to bring the installation up to Openreach standards and no doubt they would bill you for the pleasure.
“regardless of what the article says our nte is our property as we paid for it…end of.”
You may have paid for the installation of the NTE5a or b but that does not mean you own it.
It is still the property of Openreach. You have a responsibility to ensure it is looked after e.g. does not get damp or damaged.
If you allow it to get damp or damaged Openreach are obliged to charge you for rectifying the problem
Chris:
Running a business isnt like that. Whats written in small print often doesnt come into play on normal daily business.
They are made by Austin Taylor.
@ Worn out engineer.
Read all my messages. We paid an independent to install the internal wiring including a NTE.
What is going on lads? Why are you arguing over NTE’s? I’ll tell you what I’v had the weekend off and the LAST thing I’ve been thinking about are NTE5’s. Nothing with openreach is ever textbook it cant be with all of the different locations/situations we provide service. The way things are at the minute our superiors force us to bill when we dont think neccesary. We can’t even put in our notes fault, it has to be damage as the customer may have a leg to stand on. I think its shocking but then again, if we didnt charge I wouldn’t be in a job and all these competitors who have undercut us on our own network wouldnt be thriving.
Now lads lets forget about NTE5’s and go and spent time with ur wives/mistresses…..
BEEN following this thread for days….guys you gotta chill out!!!!
In the end the customer is the most important person no matter what.
@David
David if I remember rightly your socket was an early pre openreach socket which although wasnt the cause of the fault I replaced and moved for a current Openreach socket as the old one was corroding because of being mounted in a window sill.
the main thing for customers to remember is that if you take the front plate off your main socket that the dropwire or ug feed go’s directly too and you plug your phone into the main backplate and you do not have a dial tone or it has a crackle then you will not be charged……but if there is dial tone and it does not have a crackle and then you put back the front plate plug in and then you loose dial or it has a crackle then you know the fault is inside caused by the exstentions….hence chargable…………………simple………….
wow.just found this…..im a bt eng.. now an openreach one…we have a pair of wires to get to cust property now.cust care out the window.we dont care anymore because open reach want money…no such thing as free dinners.youd charge me….(bad attitude eh?) i agree.we install the lines for isp”s.who are our custs whether we like it or not.we cannot advise the end user..as our jobs are on the line.i do try my best to be the”old” engineer.but our hands are tied.im very good at undoing the tight strap but it is still a struggle to help mr n mrs jones as much as i used to be able to. blame the fatcats from isp”s.they should invest in the network.virgin has built their own.they should invest in their own curcuits. we want customer care. right first time, and fast bband oh yeah.
by the way comment 64….your “simple” attitude is bad.do you benefit from this charge?i.e. Did you give the cust what they wanted.as you should know.they do pay line rental,after all.bt engineers of old could star wire etc.which causes probs with bband..they should not be charged for.but because its an”internal” clear,you charge.or you will be questioned.hows your o/t? by the way.cust care is my belief…go to your union meeting.and we will become telephone engineers again.
P.S.im gonna charge your mum by the hour next time…
P.P.S COZ I GET FA “simple”
ppps.soon to be in the local paper.as a tele/b/band engineer.1st time comms…google it in 2009.
pppps.gone the pub
ppps i get 1.5 meg.hopefully fix it soon….!”should be up to 8….keep you informed.my hobby is tiling..on an italian mosaic course at mo. called bisazza.google it and get back if you require it.its expensive but beautiful.
Task efficiency rules! who cares about the end user as long as we get free broadband and get to drive round in the van all day listening to killer tunes on radio2…. make a note of them golden joints, their sure to give you the afternoon off
Come back when you are sober.
ps I’d love to know how you are planning on getting your 1.5 meg up to 8
Nice to see end users who havent got a clue casting negative comments yet again, Openreach work for your communications provider or isp and not for you! fact! And as for Nte’s etc if i find any illicit attachments i.e non openreach or bt nte’s then i will remove them and raise a charge! your not allowed to touch the nte other than remove the face plate if you do so its tresspass on the openreach network, you may pay for an install but thats all you pay for you dont own the line your rent it from your communications provider who in turn rent it from us!
its funny how everyone wanted bt to be broken up and now that it has your paying for it I can spend days sorting out end-users brodaband problems just so they can watch porn all day so dont say we don’t care
You cant charge for NTE 5 openreach logo’s ot BT logo’s on them. The only way you can charge if it has damage caused by customer…
Engineers should change socket to Openreach logo on a visit but half of them are to lazy to do so.
Chuck a TRC(charge) and straight down the cafe, guys just do your job earn your [] 22k a year and stop moaning..
All you got too do is run abit of cable-not that hard really, and most of the faults are put on by you lot anyway,because your too lazy to shut a joint or redo one..
Wonder where you will all be soon as landline is dying trade!! on the dole i imagine..
Landline is not a dying trade. Voice over landline may be - but this is a thread about data communications - and in a small and densely populated country like the UK, landline is going to remain the best solution for a very long time. With current technologies, there is simply not enough spectrum for wireless solutions to provide the same level of service as landlines. Wireless networks also have problems with protocol overhead and non congestion related traffic loss that can affect throughput unless TCP algorithms are adjusted. Satellite based solutions suffer from high cost of equipment, large installations, reasonably high power outputs and unavoidably high network latencies (unless LEO is used, but that has other problems).
Also, please can people commenting here remember that whilst this thread was about a particular bad piece of customer service, it is not fair to paint all openreach engineers with the same brush. Some clearly try to do the best for the customer within the constraints openreach give them. So let’s keep the comments measured (or else I will have to close this thread).
Thanks
HSDPA 3G Max Data card = 7.2 Meg
Feb 09 14.7 Meg Monthly cost £14
Expalin the high cost there??
As for congestion, hey look at your own contention rates, oh and yes your network, thats a well looked after piece of history!!!!
Mate there are a few good engineers left i am sure, just shame 90% left are crap…
In fairness Openreach have been given the bad end of a really shit deal…
just pisses me off engineers on here ripping into the people they supposedly will go that extra mile for..
Right first time my arse!!!!!!
why was my message taken out ?
I deleted several comments containing swear words - some milder than others, but the heat of the discussion was escalating rapidly.
Sorry.
fair enough Stephen , i take your point
Can anyone offer advice on this: I had problems with my cordless phone ( phone dropping after one ring and eventually incessant noise - even BT could not get through to me in the end, even on an old-fashioned phone plugged in on my side). The BT lady informed me that if an engineeer came out and found a fault on my side it would probably cost me about £200 in all. When I groaned she then urged me to try and get hold of a local man, as she suspected the fault might be with my wiring or the junction box inside.
But why can I not just remove face plate on junction box, plug into the test socket and leave it at that, I asked her, (which I am doing now) since both my phone and wireless router seem to be working perfectly with this - perhaps even faster broadband than before. (The socket is out of sight and not an eyesore.) I could just tape over the front, I suggested. She did not see why not.
What do you think? I’d appreciate your comments.
dont get bt round they will charge you